The Ocean is Confused: Connecting with Our Ocean for a Better Tomorrow

Tom00:00:26

The oceans are under assault, suffering from shifting baseline syndrome, or what we might think of is a mismatch between human memory and the world each human generation inherits.Beneath the sometimes calming, sometimes roiling ocean waves is an ecosystem absorbing more acidity, heat, eutrophication, extraction and degradation than at any time in human history.Several years ago, the then harbor master in Monterey, California told me that the ocean is confused, that much of this confusion and deterioration happens beneath the waves unseen by most. The baseline of ocean health is shifting beneath us. We live on an ocean planet.It is the ocean that drives the climate, makes the weather, and is the source and foundation of all life on Earth. Since I was 13, I have lived within at least 30 miles of the ocean and most of that time, much closer.And this is one of the many reasons why I'm excited to highlight Andrew Lewin on today's episode of Earthbound. Andrew is a marine biologist, podcaster and communications manager for Pisces Oceans.His mission is to advance our understanding of the oceans through science, strategic communication, and the kind of storytelling that moves people to act.Lewin pursues his mission with his podcast, how to Protect the Ocean, the Speak up for the Blue Podcast Network, and various other consulting and media projects.Andrew Lewin's expertise, easygoing style and narrative insight helped reveal the story of the sea, its inhabitants, and how the health of the planet depends on the health of the ocean.Following are highlights from our wide ranging conversation covering the state of ocean science and yes, shifting baselines, playing the long game as a means of maintaining optimism. Deep sea mining, the UN Convention, the law of the sea, plastics, adopting a blue mind and more. So let's not dally.Here's Andrew Lewin, scientist, podcaster, storyteller and oceanpreneur. Andrew Lewin. You've got quite a career. You started out as a researcher and scientist in marine protected areas.So I assume that you're familiar with Monterey Bay.

Andrew00:02:44

I am, I am very much so. Like the California coast, the network of MPAs that they have there in Southern California as well.

Tom00:02:53

And so you, you call yourself an oceanpreneur?

Andrew00:02:57

Yeah, it's not, I didn't coin the term because I've seen it used before. I may have just like picked it up from somebody.But I, I, you know, I feel as though like I, you know, I growing up, wanting to be a scientist, wanting to be a researcher, getting into that, being able to work in that, and then life happens, I fall in love, I marry that person, and we live in Ontario, you know, to, to raise our family because we wanted our kids to be around our grand. Our grandparents and like our, our parents and their grandpar. I had to shift sort of my outlook on what I was gonna do for my career.So I'd bounce around between environmental consulting and government and nonprofit work and so forth, but I couldn't really find something I loved. And it kind of gave me that hustle energy where you're just like, you're trying to find your next thing, you're trying to find what you love.And so I fell in love with other entrepreneurs and online. And that's how I discovered podcasts was through an entrepreneur.And I started list to a lot of entrepreneurial podcasts and videos and things like that. And so I really got into that and I was like, you know what?Like something that's missing from the ocean conservation industry that I feel that I hadn't come across.Now there's plenty of people who have been doing it and who had, who continue to do it to this day, but, you know, have that little bit of an ocean preneur feel like they, they are innovative. They want to show that they can not only make money, but have a social enterprise, have this social and environmental mission to them to do that.And I wasn't seeing a lot. I saw a lot of nonprofit organizations.And you know what, the nonprofits, they're great organizations for the most part, but they're always struggling to find funds and this and that and, and not everyone, like people do very good job.You've seen some phenomenal, and I've interviewed some phenomenal nonprofits, and they work their tails off to get what they can and to do the work that they can. But I want to show like, you can be a profitable business and you can also talk about the ocean and do things for the ocean.And that's sort of what I've been.

Tom00:04:59

That's great.

Andrew00:05:00

Bouncing around, trying to do. Now, have I been fully successful in it? No, but I'm working at it. I'm working at it.

Tom00:05:07

I think you're talking about the ocean. I'm in my wheelhouse.So I know about ocean acidification and of course oxygen depletion and all the nutrient runoff and all these things, but I don't know how. How widespread the knowledge is of what we're doing to the ocean right now.

Andrew00:05:24

It's not as widespread as you would hope.

Tom00:05:27

That's too bad.

Andrew00:05:28

It is, it is. And, and it's not because there aren't enough people talking about it.But even 15 years ago, when I started my Journey at talking about the ocean or talking about the ocean, speaking up for the ocean. Going through school like I did, I did my university, late 90s, early 2000s, did my master's early 2000s.And even then, not a lot of scientists were out there really doing science communication, especially like the academics where I was.Nonprofits obviously had their arm, their communication departments, because that was a big part of their mission, was to talk to people and get their base to. To support them in the work that they do. But government very controlled coming out.I work for government, especially depending on who's in power, as we know, I live in Canada, so we have it too sometimes. And, you know, we were very controlled of what we could talk about, what we could talk about.Certain parties allowed that and other parties allow you to go free. But, you know, there are other. There are other points where academics, they weren't talking because they were afraid of the media.Not that they were afraid to speak out. They're afraid what the media would do with their words.You know, they would manipulate them a lot of the times, depending on who owns the newspaper or the magazine or the online stuff. And so they were very concerned about it.And so when I started speaking, like I started writing a blog, as I mentioned earlier, there were two major blogs that are still out today, deepsea news.com and southern fried science.com and they were a conglomerate of scientists and researchers. Some of them were younger than others, and they would just. And they all had different levels of graduate work.Some were in graduate studies, and they would just kind of talk and they would do fun blogs. So, you know, the one on Deep Sea News, probably one of the more popular ones, was 10 reasons why dolphins are.I'm not going to say it because I don't know if you allow swearing, but a bad word, you know, and. And so like a butt head, you know, let's just say it was kind of like that.And they had like 10 reasons of sort of natural tendencies of dolphins and interactions with humans that or other animals that you wouldn't expect from a dolphin because you think it's always smiling. And so it was like. It was. It was educational but entertaining. They had a way to do that. They took the.The ocean cleanup project and basically decimated all of their points of how they can clean up the garbage patch. And. And to this day, I refer to people to those articles because that's how you do an analysis. They got oceanographers that were there.They understood what was happening, they understood what was going wrong, and they understood The Ocean cleanup project wasn't listening to anybody, and they just decided to keep going on. And eventually the ocean cleanup project reinvented fishing. Essentially, they used nets to try and grab all the fun.And now if you look at the ocean cleanup project, and I have a problem with this project because it continues to say that it's cleaning up the ocean. And now most of their videos are AI and so you're just kind of like, I don't even know what to believe.But these were the communication tools that people were using, and they were a little bit not rebellious, but they were a little bit edgy, and they were talking a lot about it, but they were providing facts in a very interesting way. Southern Fried science was a great one.Dr. Andrew Thaler would write articles about hagfish, probably one of the ugliest animals in the world, but talking about, you know, how, like, there was a hagfish spill on a van. I guess it was for aquaculture reasons or whatever, and all the slime was all over the road and everything like that.So it's just, like, it was really cool stuff, and it was important to me to get that information out there.And what really triggered me to start the podcast or even videos before that was I had a family member, the extended family, who were like, hey, Andrew, like, this climate change thing, is this something I need to worry about? And this is like, 2010. I'm like, yes, yes, it is. And I was like, you know, Tom, I was like, why are people so worried about asking?Why are they so cautious about acting or not thinking that this is a big deal. I went through school where we were saying in 20 years, climate change was gonna be the biggest problem, the biggest threat. And it is, right?20, 25 Years later, it pretty much the prediction came true.But I realized I'm like, people don't know about the ocean because there's at that point, with the Internet really running wild, Facebook starting, Twitter, starting, YouTube in its infancy, but really starting to get old, there's so much competition for information. Tabloids were like, the top at that point. Like, people knew more about what the Kardashians were doing than what was happening in the ocean.And they would believe more what the Kardashians were doing than they would what we were telling in the ocean. And it was really like. I realized quickly. I read a book called Don't Be Such a Scientist by Randy Olson. Dr. Randy Olson, great book.He's like, a pioneer in science communication. He was a Harvard. Harvard graduate in marine biology who was teaching I believe at Harvard.And then he decided to stop realizing that people need to learn more about the ocean and started doing documentaries. But he taught me through his book of, like, scientists speak facts, right? We speak to the brain.Like, I will say that, hey, we are close to the 1.5 degrees now. We're over it. Our last year, we were over it. We need to get below that 1.5 degree if we're even close to helping in reducing climate change.You hear that and you're like, yeah, no, I get that. That makes sense. So, like, people who are in the conservation and the climate change sort of avenue and get that.But if I tell that to my wife or the kids or my neighbors or things like that, they're just like, I don't even understand why that's important. It's 1.5 degrees. Like, who cares? It's 25 degrees. I'm happy. It's warm outside. That's all I care about. We're in winter here in Canada.People are like, once it gets 8 degrees Celsius, people are like, this is beautiful. I can put shorts on now. This is the weather I want all the time. They don't care about the numbers. Right.

Tom00:11:08

But if.

Andrew00:11:08

If we start saying, hey, by the way, remember when we got flooded two, like, two weeks in a row? And you don't get insurance now because your basement keys flooding? People care about that.

Tom00:11:19

Yeah.

Andrew00:11:20

You know what I mean? Or it's like, do you not want to have that? Do you not have to worry about insurance? People care about that. They care about what's happening to them.And so it's like. But you have to get the. Like, he taught me to go for the emotion. Like, go for the gut, not the brain.And so start to get to people's emotions, whether it's sadness or laughter or something. So my podcast, unknowingly. So I had an old professor tell me. He's like, andrew, how do you do it where you speak everybody's language?And at first I was like, I think he's telling me I'm not smart. What is he trying to tell me? What do you mean by that? You know?And he's like, no, you just speak everyday language, and it's really nice because you can include everybody. And I was like, oh, okay. I don't insult it anymore.

Tom00:12:01

Invoking the infamous line from the movie network, we're mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore, is admittedly my interpretation. But Lewin acknowledges the serious damage being done.Some of it irreparable but he looks to a longer game where people reclaim their agency and refuse to be led by knaves and fools. For what is lost, much can still be recovered, preserved and reimagined. The optimism question.It's the question I ask nearly everyone I converse with on Earthbound. Where do you find it? How do you maintain it? What is worse, pessimism or apathy?How do you balance the realities on the ground with hope for a better world? How do you stay optimistic in the face of these headwinds that we're facing?

Andrew00:12:54

You know, I look at the long game, I look at the long game and right now we're in the short game, right? And damage is being done. There's no doubt about it. I'm hoping this is the short game.To be honest, I'm really, as a Canadian, I'm hoping this is a short game.I believe there's a bit of a movement happening where there's a more of a disconnect than ever of not necessarily political divide, but I feel like almost like a financial divide.There's more and more people who are the billionaires of the world who are just so out of touch with reality, with what everybody else is going through, that I feel like there's a bit of a stir coming up and hopefully a change on the horizon of what is expected for everyday living.So for instance, the President of the United States, when he was running for election, he ran on lower grocery prices, lower eggs, lower interest rates, all that kind of stuff. He hasn't. And no wars and no worries. Yeah, he hasn't done any of those.

Tom00:14:03

Nope.

Andrew00:14:03

Right. Like if we look at the reality of the situation, he hasn't done any of those. The politicians who are usually the richer class have had.They've done a really good job in letting us forget that and kind of distracting us in the day to day kind of things. Now look, it's been hard to watch friends of mine and colleagues of mine lose their jobs at noaa.NOAA is and always will be one of the best scientific institutions across the board from anywhere, from, and of course NASA as well. From space down to the depths of the ocean. The people that work there, bipartisan for the most part.You know, loving the ocean, loving space, loving the planet. Just want to do better for the planet. This has been their dreams.And I think a lot of the times, yes, they could probably clean up some waste, but let's be honest, the waste they're trying to clean up is more for political gain and fossil fuel development. And so the Hypocrisy is being laid out for everybody. And I think this next election of midterms, I think it's this November, correct?

Tom00:15:13

That's right.

Andrew00:15:13

2026.

Tom00:15:14

Yeah.

Andrew00:15:14

This will tell whether people are listening. Cross fingers. This will tell whether people are listening.So I have hope and optimism that as a species, we will prevail from this encouragement of the unintellectual. Right. Like, you know, you see it, you see it in the podcast industry.The major podcasts that are around are bro y type, unintelligent, I guess more right wing, but don't really know what they're talk. Don't even know if they're right wing or not. They're just like very like, man, man ish, you know, misogyny type thing. And very basic.It's just very basic.But the thing is, there are a very high number of podcasts that may not get the limelight that people are listening to, that are intelligent, but also personalized to people. So they're very personable. So you can connect with the people and you can understand that. You know what, like, life is difficult.It's not like black and white. Right. It's not red or blue. You mentioned it with Kathryn Lacefield in your last episode, especially in your intro.You're just like, just because you love animals and you want to protect animals doesn't mean you hate people. You know what I mean?Just because you want people to be able to have a livable wage doesn't mean you hate people who have businesses and want to succeed. I think that has been very well manipulated in the political sphere.

Tom00:16:52

Yeah.

Andrew00:16:52

And so I'm hoping that we're starting to realize that as a species and start to say, hey, you know what, we're just part of this. We are not above this. We do not control, we manipulate and we have a big influence. But we are part of this.And if we start to realize that we are part of this, then we're starting to see it more in conservation now, especially with oceans, I'm not as familiar with land, but especially with oceans. We're going back to listening to indigenous people whose lifestyle is, we are a part of this natural world.So let's be thankful and let's be grateful and let's give back as much as possible. So ocean conservation is moving towards that, and I feel like policy is going to move towards that.It's whether we can get these ignorant politicians who are just out for money to realize that that's where everybody wants to move to.

Tom00:17:44

But for these ignorant Politicians, apathy, not agency, not demand for change, not being accountable with honesty and transparency is exactly what they want.

Andrew00:17:56

That, that's what they want. They want the apathy. You know, I don't know if you've noticed this, but I've noticed this a little bit here and there.You know, we saw that back in the 80s and 90s. It was all about denial, right? These fossil fuel companies were like, pushing out.There are billions of dollars for marketing campaigns to be like, no, it's not true. Like, it's denial, denial, denial, denial.Then they kind of went like, oh, yeah, we're, we're helping, you know, we're, we're, you know, we got all this carbon capture stuff and we're doing this. And that was all bs, like, that never happened. And then now I find they're like, I, I found some are like, you know what?Yeah, climate change is happening. It's real. There's nothing we can do about it.

Tom00:18:30

Yeah.

Andrew00:18:31

So you might as well, let's just, let's just continue on, keep buying the products. Like, don't worry about it, we'll be fine.Like, let's just go on, you know, and so they're, they're banking on apathy and they're very good at what they do and they come out with strategies and they pay a lot people a lot of money and they have a big backing.They're almost in every avenue, every TV station, every, some point in time, every government pocket, whether it's blue or red or whatever you color, you, you go with orange here in Canada and you're just like, wow, like, this is a, this is a big thing. But I feel like we're at a point right now. And this kind of gives me the optimism too. It's.Renewables are here, they're being developed even if countries aren't talking about it.I have a friend who works for a hydro company here in Canada, and I asked him, I said, hey, I know the government hasn't really been totally transparent on how much stuff is going on, but how much are you guys using renewable? He goes, you don't understand how much we've been developing. We don't talk about it because it's not popular, but we have a lot of renewals.And in Canada, we look at our electricity, hydroelectricity for us, because we have so many lakes and rivers, is massive. Like, it's 80% of our electricity in Canada, so we're practically renewable.You know, we have nuclear, which, you know, has its problems, but also generates a lot of Power.

Tom00:19:50

According to the UN Environment Program, approximately 11 million tons of plastic enter our oceans every year. Or roughly one garbage truck full every minute. Plastics the bane of our existence and something we can't live without.A treaty was mandated in March of 2022 by UN Environment Assembly Resolution 514 to end plastic pollution with a legally binding agreement covering the full plastics life cycle. The treaty was originally due to come into force by the end of 2024. So how's it going? Care to guess? Yup, stuck.The past year has been about failure and reset rather than progress. The split is between a majority of states seeking an ambitious treaty and a minority of petrochemical producing nations.And you can probably guess which ones those are.A small minority of oil producing countries have used the consensus rules to stall or water down agreements at each round, even when greatly outnumbered. The unresolved question is whether the text focuses on plastic production or end of life waste treatment.

Andrew00:21:03

We look at plastic pollution in the ocean. Plastics are like 30% of revenue from oil and gas and chemical companies.And so you see the UN plastic tree that's trying to get put through and you see 200 lobbyists at these from the oil and gas industry and chemical industry that are there to just sort of like derail this whole thing. I was at a friend who works for Oceana. He was, he was on the podcast and he was, he. It was when they had the meeting in Ottawa.He said they would come up to people from other countries, right. Coming in because, you know, obviously it's a U N meeting, so there's people from all over, but they were sort of advocates for oil and gas.And so they'd have all these posters and, and billboards and everything like that. And they're out there speaking, they're like, yeah, you know, plastics are good for us and this and that, blah, blah.And so they had conversations with some of these people and they're like, hey, just like, do you have a background? Is just, you know, just having conversations, you know, and the people are like, no, no, actually we don't know anything about plastics.We were just paid to come here, you know, but they're getting minorities to come through to speak up and they're like, yeah, we just, like, it was a free trip to Canada. Like, it was cool like that, you know, and it's not to take away from any of them, but, you know, they're taking money to promote misinformation.

Tom00:22:12

Yeah.

Andrew00:22:13

And so you're just kind of like, oh, okay. So like they're just everywhere and so we have to build those. We have to expose them, expose the companies and everything, like, for doing that.And then we have to look at what's good for us as a species. A lot of the times when we go environmentally friendly or eco friendly, it's usually good for us as long as it's not greenwashing.It's usually good for us in health and good for us for our wallets. And so you're just kind of like, oh, okay. And now we're at a point where it's like, it's even cheaper. Like, it's like, okay, let's go with this.

Tom00:22:45

So what is the state of the UN Plastic treaty right now?

Andrew00:22:50

Unfortunately, it was supposed to. So they had a meeting in South Korea back In November of 2025, I think, or October 2025, or maybe in the summer 2025, I can't remember.It was in 2025. It was supposed to be the fifth and final meeting.They were supposed to have something, an agreement made, and then that was hopefully going to be ratified. It wasn't made. It got derailed again by these lobbyists, and certain countries wanted to de. And so it's still in negotiation.So I think they're supposed to have another one. Don't quote me on this, but I think it's like in Africa somewhere, in Nairobi maybe, or Kenya, I'm not too sure.But back there, that's where I think it first started.So they're still pushing forth, unfortunately, like, the US has kind of pulled out, which is a big player in a lot of these international UN Agreements. So that's going to hold up a lot of stuff. Hopefully we can get some agreements with other countries. But it's a game, right? You see that?We even saw this with the International Whaling Commission, like Japan used to, when they wanted the moratorium lifted.They used to, like, bribe smaller countries who had equal votes, and they were like, oh, we'll give you schools, we'll give you this, we'll give you that. We'll partner with you if you give us a vote for whaling. That happens at international agreements all the time. You just never hear about it.So it's an interesting game to see what happens in these kind of things. And again, they keep getting exposed and people keep finding out. And environmentalists and nonprofits get a little smarter every little.Every time, and they try and rebuke, it'll get passed.

Tom00:24:24

Who has jurisdiction over the open Ocean? If you're 201 miles from a nation's coastline, it's kind of a Mess nobody or everybody or anybody.That's not exactly the case, but it comes close when considering biomass extraction and deep sea mining.The good news is that the agreement under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea on the Conservation and Sustainable Use of marine biological diversity of areas beyond national jurisdiction, more commonly known as the BBNJ Agreement, or thank God the High Seas Treaty, is a legally binding instrument for the conservation and sustainable use of marine biological diversity of areas beyond national jurisdiction, beyond that hard watery border of 200 miles. The agreement came into force in January 2026. But as Lewin says, coming into force and real enforcement aren't always the same thing.

Andrew00:25:25

Means that in international waters where nobody has control, we are able, with the agreements of the people of the countries who ratified this, be able to put in marine protected areas. So for instance, there is a big fishery for squid along the, they call it mile 201.So the exclusive economic zones along each country is 200 nautical miles.So 201, you see on the coast of Argentina in the South Atlantic, you see a number of different fishing vessels, fishing fleets that just line the 201 border.

Tom00:25:57

Yeah.

Andrew00:25:58

And so when the squid do their major migration, as soon as they come over that line, boom, they're fishing like crazy and there's nothing Argentina can do about it. But it's reducing their fishing pressure because these are short lived species, they have a one year life cycle.So you keep taking things like that, they can't reproduce, they're on their way to reproduce, but they can't because there's not going to be as many. And so they just keep taking and taking and taking.So imagine with the High Seas Treaty, I'm not saying this is going to happen, but the hope is that they put a marine protected area in that area and then they can just, they can enforce it because right now the Coast Guard for Argentina can go up to mile 200. They can't go over 201. They can't enforce there. But now they might have the power to do that through the High Seas Treaty.And I think that will be huge, you know, with that enforcement, do you.

Tom00:26:44

Anticipate the enforcement would actually be enforced or did?

Andrew00:26:48

Well, I mean that's, that's the thing, that's the theory. Yeah, that's always the theory, but it allows countries to do that.So if Argentina wanted to protect their fishery and their people, because like the squid are not just an important fishery for Argentina, they're an important predator species as well as prey species in that food web so if they disappear, that's going to disrupt that food web which is going to feed and prosper for all of Argentina. So they have skin in the game, let's just say, to protect it.And so if they have the ability to enforce it, they might throw out some ships or they might use satellite imagery to look at it. They might start enfor forcing users to keep their AIs, their GPS trackers on so that we can see where they are.And, you know, they might work around it.If we're able to protect that, that spillover effect might work beyond those borders and might help those distant fishing fleets to still prosper, but not take up everything.

Tom00:27:48

As for deep sea mining, Andrew explains.The isa, or the International Seabed Authority, which is part of unclos, the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, meets regularly to discuss the regulation and future of deep sea mining.Countries operating under the ISA want caution and restraint generally before going headlong into raising the ocean seabed with little understanding of the consequences. Others, particularly those not party to the ISA or unclos, see a business opportunity.And as a side note, the United States signed the UNCLOS treaty decades ago, but has yet to ratify it. Another thing I wanted to ask you about ocean seabed mining.

Andrew00:28:30

Oh, yes, the deep sea mining.

Tom00:28:31

Deep sea mining.

Andrew00:28:32

Oh, yes, yeah. Yes, yes, yes.

Tom00:28:34

There was some meeting. There probably has been since I talked to these two scientists. I'm wondering what the state of play is on deep sea mining right now.

Andrew00:28:42

It's been interesting over the last few years.So you have on one side, you have the International Seabed Authorities, the UN International Seabed Authorities Authority, the isa, and that is a group of countries that are signatory, signatories on the UN Law of the Sea. So it's called UNCLOSSED is what this is called, Convention of Law of the Sea. And you, unfortunately, the US Is not a signatory.They've never have been. It wasn't Trump, it was. This has been a long time ago.So I don't want to blame everything on him, but we'll get to him in a minute because he's involved in this now, of course, as one would think.And so you have that International Seabed Authority that meet about twice a year to discuss regulations or coming up with regulations on deep sea mining in the Future. Back in 2015, there was a moratorium that was agreed upon all countries.And of course, there's a couple of countries that want to do a little bit of exploratory deep sea mining here and there. I think there was one in Papua New Guinea. There's been some in a few sites here and there just to kind of figure out what's going on.There's been a lot of research going on. But also like the big question is we know virtually nothing in comparison about the deep sea.We do not know if what we are going to do by sucking up these nodules, how that's going to affect the deep sea processes.You know, at one point there was a paper that came out saying these polymetallic nodules, which is very like have the cobalt and have all these little metals in there that we talked about earlier for batteries.

Tom00:30:10

Right.

Andrew00:30:11

A lot of them like the people are talking about, oh well, they create oxygen. Oh, okay, well now that's different. That puts a little wrench in a lot of people's plans.

Tom00:30:19

Yeah.

Andrew00:30:20

And so at one point the ISA was chaired by a guy who seemed to be leaning more towards the deep sea mining companies. And for a while we started to notice there was a fast tracking of the regulations so that we can get more mining processes is out there.And so there was a big couple years ago, there was a big uproar and somebody challenged this chair to a vote to be like, hey, I want to be chair. And I don't remember the name of the woman, I apologize but she's now the new chair she got voted in.But get this, she's an oceanographer, a scientist. Imagine that, a scientist position of power where they're coming up with regulations.So she is very much on the side of let's make sure we don't screw this up.Now I talked to a friend of mine, Dr. Andrew Thaler, who I highly recommend if you want to do a deep dive into deep sea mining, that is the man you want to talk to or even Dr. Diva Aman. Both of those are very knowledgeable in deep sea mining and speak out to it a little bit more.They know the industry, they know people in the industry and they have a very sensible scientific mind when you go into it. And anyway, Andrew was telling me about how these processes work and there's different types of deep sea mining of what they're.They're looking at these little nodules that are sitting on the bottom and they have been there for millennia. And then you have hydrothermal vents which are these very high temperature, like 400 degrees Fahrenheit. Black smokers, like very toxic sulfur.They give off sulfur, not oxygen. But very unique areas that people want to mine as well.But that seems a lot of like that's taking out chunks and you're going to mess up these deep sea hymothermal events. Then you have the seamounts where you're taking chunks off a seamount.But a seamount is very diverse and it holds a lot of biodiversity of animals and it's very important. So these mountains and seamount areas, these are very, very important. So, like the polymetallic nodules seem like the right way to go.But the problem is now is you have the ISA is like, yeah, we have like Dr. Anderson is like, we have a chance to do it right.You know, if this is going to happen, which will probably will happen at some point, if this is going to happen, we have a chance to finally get it right and make sure we do the proper regulations, the proper monitoring, the proper enforcement. In comes 2025, and so that was like sort of the course of nature for a while. And then now that's. This is all in the high seas zone. Right.So this is not anybody in their own exclusive economic zone. So that 200 nautical mile zone can do anything they want. Yeah, as long as their government approves. Right.And so in comes 2025, Trump becomes president once again. And we start to hear rumors that the metals company, which is actually a Canadian company, is starting to go and is running out of investment money.Because it's a lot of money starts to go to the Trump administration says, hey, we have an idea. You can mine in your own exclusive economic zone. And they can't nothing, nobody can do anything about it. Why don't we start deep sea mining?And of course Trump's, Mr. Let's exploit any kind of natural resource possible, whether it's fossil fuels or the deep sea. Who cares? He doesn't care about regulations. He doesn't care about that. So in comes this process.Now we start to see and there's all of a sudden there's these sites that they start to propose for deep sea mining. Now, of course, in true colonial fashion, they start with the indigenous islands, so the Pacific islands, so the American Samoa.And then so they opened up a comment, a public comment period for American Samoa.Then they opened up a public comment period with very little time back in December for the cnmi, the Mariana Islands, you know, and then now they're starting, there's rumors are starting to go to like I think they did. They just put it out for Virginia and there's rumors of other places.So they're putting out all these areas that people are like, we're interested in this and it's kind of like an rfi, like a, what do they call them, Request for information, you know, instead of request for proposal. They're trying to see what's happening. So that opens up a comment, a public comment period.Now, the public comment period just closed Yesterday for the CNMI now in the American Samoa, closed before 2005 ended. They were very against it.People were like, the people of American Samoa, people in the US There was like, I don't know how many, but it was a lot of petitions being like, no, we don't want it.From my analysis from a friend of mine, Angelo Vilagomez, who's from Saipan, he works in D.C. he's saying now that there's about 60,000 signatories that say, we do not want this to happen in cnmi. No, no deep sea mining. Now, the island of Guam already said no. So they can't even open it.Like the municipal island just said, the territory said, we're not gonna even, we're not even gonna like engage. We're not even gonna talk about it. So that's where we're at right now.Now there's also rumors that Trump has, the administration has their eyes set on the, I think it's called the Clariton Clipperton Zone, which is in the high seas area, which is like very studied. It was actually there was a study that just came out on that where there was some exploratory deep sea mining about two years ago.And two years later they looked at what the biological diversity looked like before. And they looked at it what, two years later, what it looked like.And 50% of the species that were found in that area did not recover from that deep sea mine. So we know there's an impact. Even though it's just like getting off the surface, we know there's an impact.Now let me just talk to you a little bit about. I know this, this is a long answer. I'd apologize.

Tom00:35:54

That's fine. But that's fine.

Andrew00:35:56

Let me just talk about what this system's going to look like because a lot of people are like, oh, it's deep sea mine. They're just going to grab the stuff and then you're going to go, this is not just like an ROV goes down.They just grab stuff, puts it in a bag and then goes back to the surface.This is like a vacuum that there's going to be a machine on the ground and there's going to be like a tube from that machine that is going to go from the Deep sea. So when we're talking deep sea, we're looking at 2 to 3,000 meters below the surface. Yeah, right.And then that's gonna, that tube is gonna go all the way up the water column to a surface to a ship of some sort. Now you can't just do this, especially at the beginning with just one ship. There's gonna be a lot of ships, gonna be like a little city of ships.Very much like the sort of little city that they have in Louisiana with all the oil platforms. Oh yeah, they call it platform city, I think is what they call it. So it's gonna be very similar like that.So there's gonna be a bunch of ships are gonna be to supposed port ships, all that kind of stuff. And of course they're going to be on these islands.Like the people, they're going to have to fly there to get out to the ships to go out and do this kind of stuff. Think about what a vacuum is going to sound like and you know how sound travels through the ocean.There's going to be local disturbances for marine mammals, for seabirds, for just. We know sound affects animals in the ocean and so that's going to affect, how that's going to affect it.We don't know know, but there's a lot of migratory species that go along, very important ones that go along and they need sound to communicate with the rest of their pod and we don't know how that's gonna, that's gonna affect it.So that's sort of what we're looking at from an operational standpoint and that's kind of where we're at right now from a permission and permit standpoint. So we'll see what happens.I assume that unfortunately, like this administration is gonna look at the public comments, ignore it and do whatever they want anyway.

Tom00:37:42

Yeah, probably.

Andrew00:37:43

Yeah, yeah. Now with that said, it may not be viable for people to do it. We don't even know.It's still exploratory at this point and it may not even happen until after, you know, Trump's four years and God forbid he gets in again or he stays for whatever reason, or the Republicans stay on, we should, like I can, I can't see it happening. I hope that it doesn't happen beyond that. If we decide not to or we.

Tom00:38:08

Do more research, why are we drawn to the ocean? It is the source of life on the planet, so there's that.But our land loving primordial ancestors crawled out from the sea more than 3 billion years ago, long before humans eventually emerged on the scene. And yet we seek communion with it, drawn to its at once calming blue waters, fierce majesty and expansive beauty.It is the blue mind, Lewin explains, a source of solace, well being and immense gratitude. In the midst of our fractious, anxiety ridden human landscape, there was a great scientist.

Andrew00:38:47

Unfortunately he's passed away, but in your area, Dr. Jay Nichols, who wrote a book called the Blue Mind and he really defined it.So he was a sea turtle biologist known for one of the first, he was one of the first scientists to watch a tag sea turtle go from Baja California all the way to Japan.And he changed his career trajectory to write a book on the blue mind, which basically he teamed up conservationists and himself with neurobiologists and neuroscientists looking at the effect of nature and the ocean on our brains.And he's like, why do we go to the beach or why do we go to a cottage where there's water or where there's an ocean is because the actual color blue is calming, you know, and to be out on the ocean or to be out just in nature itself is calming. We are in a society of anxious people because we have, we are stimulated by information. We can't get away from the information.You and I have talked a lot about information that we have found on videos, online, in articles and everything like that. We probably need to disconnect a little bit just to get back into nature.You're right to sleep better and to, and to not be as anxious and not have panic attacks or I get sometimes when I think about this, too much touching, like being out in nature, like Jay Nichols, like defined it perfectly and it was, that book was like redefined A lot of the way conservationists went out, ocean conservationists went about getting people to just get back into nature. Let's worry about less of the one degree, one and a half degree and let's get back into nature.Because then all of a sudden you're like, I really like this. I don't want to get really rid of it.

Tom00:40:29

Yeah.You know, I think, yeah, when you do that, when you get out, it grows your gratitude and then there's something to save here, you know, let's save it.

Andrew00:40:38

Absolutely, absolutely. Like seeing animals, seeing birds, listening to the birds. It all matters, right?

Tom00:40:43

Watching. I, I love to watch the pelicans. Oh yeah, they're, they're so graceful and they're flying great for any eye. It's just great to watch nature.

Andrew00:40:51

And now in Monterey, I know, unfortunately there was a devastating shark event that happened recently, but a couple weeks ago you're seeing an increase in great whites in those areas.

Tom00:41:01

We are, yeah.

Andrew00:41:02

That's pretty cool. Like other than what happened there, which doesn't happen a lot, to see these, these massive animals come north is pretty cool.Like from a nature perspective, maybe not from a swimmer's perspective, but from a nature perspective, like that's a conservation success story. And to be out there watching, coming, maybe coming across and seeing a fin every once in a while, you're like, that's pretty cool.Like to see something, something like that. Yeah, it really is. You're probably by one of the most stunning coastlines I know in the world.

Tom00:41:32

There's no reason for me not to be completely grateful for this.

Andrew00:41:36

Yeah.

Tom00:41:39

So tell me listeners about Speak up for the Blue in your, in your podcasts.

Andrew00:41:44

Yeah.So Speak up for Blue is a network of podcasts that I'm building all surrounded, surrounding like information on oceans and wildlife and how we can, you know, become better stewards of the ocean.Not necessarily by going out and picking up plastic or anything like that, obviously that's part of it, but just like day to day life, just living for a better ocean.So if you're thirsty, you bring your, you know, your reusable container for water instead of going to the convenience store and buying a plastic bottle of some kind of sugary drink that you probably don't need in your life. Life. And so it's just like little things like that.So the idea is to educate people on the ocean awareness and what's happening and then a lot like teach them how you can speak up as well how they can speak up and then how they can live for a better ocean. And that's through how to Protect the Ocean, which is my flagship podcast.And then I have another podcast that I co host with Dr. David Ebert, who's actually from the Monterey area. Another guy I would recommend that you have on, he's known as the Lost Shark Guy guy, Phenomenal individual.He's been in the game for over 40 years and he's. During his lifetime he has discovered and described over 50 species of sharks.

Tom00:42:52

Cool.

Andrew00:42:53

Like really, really very scientific, very cool, fun guy to talk to and in the Monterey Bay area. So he'd be a cool guy to have. Cool.And so we talk about shark science, we talk about careers in shark science by getting people on and talking about their career careers and what they do and how their careers have kind of meandered in and out of shark science because a lot of people that we meet Young people who are like, hey, like, how do I become a shark scientist? And you're like, well, you know, it's not easy, but you can do it. But don't expect like a straight path, which a lot of people do.And if they don't get it, they're fa. They feel like they're failures and it's a lot of, you know, build up and a lot of pressure on them.So we, we just talked to people who have been in the game from 5, 10, 15, 20, 40 years and just see how their lives meander and they get to hear about their favorite authors, like journal authors and you know, things like that.Dave himself has, I think published over 30 textbooks, like 30 books, like just in general on describing different species of sharks and the sharks of the world and ghost sharks and all this. And he, he mentors other people and it's just, it's just phenomenal. He's a great, he's a great guy. So it's, it's fun to do that podcast.We get along really well. And then I have a new podcast out called Polar Bears and Flip Flops and that is a live podcast that we do on our, on my YouTube channel.On Speak up for Blue TV. I do this with Angelo Villagomez, who's a very good friend of mine.He is from Saipan in the Mariana Islands and He lives in D.C. and he's very much focused on ocean conservation. He was the person I mentioned that was looking at the, did the post on the deep sea mining and the comments, the public comments.He's very good at advocacy, very good at understanding science and speaking the science to people. Probably one of the up and comers in the game of ocean conservation.So we basically do a live show and we talk about, you know, we'll talk about a story. Like last week we talked about how great whites were.There's a story that came out that great whites were nearly going extinct in the Mediterranean, which, you know, we didn't even know there was a population the Mediterranean. So just like canon conversations that we would probably have regularly and we kind of just share it with everybody and hopefully that will develop.We just started it, you know, just at the New year, so that's new.So you can get that on Speak up for Blue tv and if you just want to go, just to find out anything, speak up for blue.com is my website that you can go to and you can get all the, the different podcasts and stuff like that. The how to Protect the Ocean podcast. I think I'VE I'm on. I'm about to publish 18, so that's excellent.

Tom00:45:19

How often do you publish?

Andrew00:45:20

Three times a week on that episode. Wow. On that podcast.And then we do once a week for polar bears and flip flops and we do once every two weeks for Beyond Jaws podcast, which is the shark podcast.

Tom00:45:35

Yeah. So full time job sounds like it's,.

Andrew00:45:39

You know, it should be. It should be. You know, we talked to be. The beginning was about monetization, just not there yet.I do have a full time job that's in like software and customer success and that kind of stuff that I do full time and then I come and I do this and as I live in Ontario, it's what keeps me connected to the ocean. It's what keeps me connected to my colleagues and my friends that I've made over over the last 20, 25 years in this game and allows me.The goal is to do this, you know, full time in science communication. Full time. To be able to get out there and help more people become aware and help organizations become aware.I'm starting to do some consulting with organizations and reaching out to organizations to help them with their consulting or with their communication because sometimes they don't have the funds or the, or the money to do that kind of stuff. And yeah. Also do podcasting, podcast management on the side as well.

Tom00:46:28

So yeah, keep yourself busy and you take your hustle and you take your dogs out for walks.

Andrew00:46:32

Take dogs out for walks. Coach my daughters in hockey and as a true Canadian and Yeah, yeah, we do, we do all that stuff. So it's a good. Sleep well at night.

Tom00:46:41

Good for you. Yeah.I, I think what you bring to the table from what I can tell is your scientific knowledge plus your ability to communicate as, as one of one of your professors said, you know, you are very personable and well, like you said, you bring it to people's. Get past the head and go into their. Yeah. Which is critical.

Andrew00:47:01

The gut. Yeah.

Tom00:47:02

You know, if the facts and figures were going to move people that it would have happened long time ago.

Andrew00:47:06

100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah.It's so important as a scientist to learn that, you know, every scientist I think should go through some kind of science communication course in college as we learn because communication is key and you're starting to see more and more scientists use, you know, sort of document their life as a scientist and talk about conservation issues and talk about issues that they face on a day to day basis or even just life. Like what? Like they'll, they'll Do.They'll take videos of a day in the life of a scientist, and one's diving in the Maldives, the other one's on the coast of Carolinas enjoying, you know, their team and also, you know, platforming other scientists and getting them into science communication. It's just wonderful.

Tom00:47:46

Yeah.

Andrew00:47:46

You know, and I think we see, like, through science communication, we can platform a lot more people. It's one thing I try and do on the podcast, but also just support others who are doing the same work.And, you know, in the past, we've seen a lot of selfishness, you know, and trying to keep some people down and not up.And my goal is just to try and share as many people because, like, look like, not everybody's gonna love me, you know, I know that, you know, some people are going to connect with me. Some people just won't, and that's fine.The idea is to get others to talk and get others to do the same so that they connect with those people and they have their own audience. And then we can just, you know, spread. Spread word, branch out, spread the word.

Tom00:48:22

That is the advantage. You know, we talked about the dark side of all the online media. This is. This is the bright side.

Andrew00:48:28

You can reach people. Absolutely.

Tom00:48:30

With the right kind of message. Yeah.

Andrew00:48:32

So important. So important. Yeah.

Tom00:48:34

Well, thanks a lot for your time. It was a great conversation.

Andrew00:48:37

And, Tom, I had a fantastic time. Thank you for being patient with me. I know it's a long episode, so I appreciate it.

Tom00:48:42

No problem. You know.

Andrew00:48:44

Yeah, A lot of fun.

Tom00:48:47

It was indeed a lot of fun talking with Andrew Lewin and insightful as well. We covered a lot of ground from effective ocean science communication, or the lack thereof, maintaining optimism and fighting apathy.And remember, apathy is what they want, so fight that.Then we went on to the High Seas Treaty and Deep sea mining and finally, the Blue Mind, how the Ocean Calms the Savage Beast within and far foster's gratitude. And that is where I will leave it.With gratitude for Andrew Lewin and ocean scientists, communicators everywhere, and for the blue ocean that has been part of my home, indeed, everyone's home, for as long as I can remember. Check the show notes for more information on Andrew Lewin, his Speak up for the Blue Network, and other topics discussed in this episode.I'm Thomas Schoon. Hi, I'm Cinnamon and this is Earthbound Stories from the Life on a Warming Planet.If this episode resonated with you, if you like what we're doing, please leave a rating and review wherever you listen. It genuinely helps us and helps others find the show. And if you haven't already, subscribe so you don't miss what's next. Thank you, dear listener.I'll see you in a couple weeks. And in the meantime. Meantime, stay safe. Sam, It.